Siobhan Davies

Endangered Species

After participating in a dance workshop at her studio, I speak with choreographer Siobhan Davies, who has worked in the Arctic landscape.

Siobhan Davies Dance Studios,
London, Tuesday 1 April 2008

.

Excerpts from a conversation:

Lisa

…Was your awareness of the changes that you experienced, perhaps witnessed, or certainly learnt about from scientists who were there…did that knowledge enhance this feeling of interconnectedness that you expressed on Saturday, of …no line between your body and the environment?

Siobhan

I don’t think in all honesty I witnessed change. One, I didn’t know what it looked like before. And two, I think I witnessed and experienced an extreme set of physical responses because I was in a dangerous situation. In other words, it is not central London. It is the high Arctic, which physically has an effect on you every second of the day.

So the knowledge is that I come back here, and I know I am being physically affected every second of the day. But now I’m more aware of it because I was put in that extreme situation up there.

L.

That’s really interesting. So your experience there shifted your perception of here.

S.

And it’s also an emotional knowledge. So although the scientists were terrific, and I benefited enormously from simply experiencing other people’s knowledge succinctly and intelligently put forward. That was just wonderful. In the end I think it was the emotional experience and knowledge which has been the greatest …I was going to use the word fire, but somehow it’s the wrong Arctic word for …an engine for a different kind of energy.

And then the experience of gradually understanding this lack of line between myself and where I exist, that’s been ongoing as choreographic and dance artist… (pauses)…research. I mean, It doesn’t need to be research, because it’s a fact. But funnily enough it’s sometimes very …you don’t always work with the facts. You forget that it’s a fact. So you have to go back and work with it, as a fact again.

L.

Well in our society, from what I understand of what you talked about on Saturday, it’s like another one of those inconvenient truths.

S.

Yes. Yes, you just, you forget that you are, that your mind and your body are made up of matter and that the place that you live in is made up of matter and that you are, each part of you is just moleculed, or remoleculed up into different ways. And by truly recognising that – not in a poetic sense, not in a…any other sense than IT IS. There it is! It’s what you have to deal with, what you have to understand. Because IT is understanding itself. Because it’s a fact.

L.

So when you came back, was your value of dance as a way of us connecting with ourselves, with each other and with the environment, even further enhanced?

S.

I don’t know if I would use those words, I’ve um… (pauses, eye closed) This is going to be difficult for me to put in words. I don’t necessarily think of myself as poetic. It’s not that I BELIEVE in dance, although I do. It is that dance IS. And I hold onto that is-ness as a form of learning. So, as a form of learning I try to allow it…I try to let it use me. And I was incredibly daunted that I should be asked to make a piece that would in any way be able to give an image, an understanding, a reason for engaging with climate change…and I came up with something, and I was glad about it.

And if I could find something else to make, I would. But I don’t want…I’m also very aware that I don’t think this is the time or place to overcrowd our imagination with things that could be unnecessary. In other words, I think in order… that to find something, ideally you need to find something that would really work.

L.

I notice you have Tufte’s book [Envisioning Information] on the floor.

S.

It’s fantastic.

L.

It is. I’ve been referring to that and his other books. And I was very interested to hear you use the word accuracy in your talk, which is something I’m grappling with. How can art be accurate?

S.

Yes, we’re all, I think we’re all grappling with that, and I’m not, you know I certainly wouldn’t say I am accurate, but I think there is the pursuit of trying to find the right movement in the right time in the right place, or the right word and the right time and the right place…is what we endeavour to do. And we miss in an enormous amount of time. But that ah…

L.

What I find accurate, for me, in Endangered Species, is how it resonates with my own experience of the Antarctic, through very succinct use of line and sharp contrast between the black and the white, and so, just through the visual language, for me, it was an accurate representation of something I experienced, and from speaking with other artists who have been to the Antarctic, it resonates with their experience as well. But they’ve come up with different images…

S.

Were these dance artists?

L.

No. You’re the first moving person that I’ve met, which is why I’m interested.

S.

So that’s quite hard. I mean even the other artists on the boat were looking at me going, “What the hell is she going to do.” Because most of us…the movement that you could do was walk. And walking was tremendously enjoyable, partly because it took you out into this extraordinary landscape. And partly because it kept you warm. And (pauses)…I don’t think one felt as one with the landscape, but it did take you out into it, the act of walking. And the act of walking became incredibly important. And I was left with that when I came home.

L.

So when you s… Yes. That’s really interesting, because you talk about there being no division in the sense of no division between yourself and the landscape, and yet you say that in the Arctic you didn’t feel at one. Did you feel it more at home here, when you returned?

S.

I don’t think, I mean I know we are one, (laughs) so, I know we are one, I mean I know this idea of matter. And the strength that that gives me is that (pauses)…oh gosh, this is so difficult…That …we have to constantly remind ourselves that we are not the dominant partner, dominant…(long pause)

L.

Force?

S.

The dominant force. Good. But we…it, it …and yet at the same time, there we are, behaving as if we are, and achieving an enormous amount as a form of dominant force.

So our dominance is that we are achieving a change, in the climate.

So in one way we are a dominant force, but when it finally gets down to it, the planet will survive in some form and we won’t. So at that moment we will realise that we have tipped the balance, and everything will have gone.

So psychologically I suppose we’re…and culturally, and politically…we are…and socially…we are trying to deal with this the entire time, when we’re making a mess of it.

So it’s recognising that. And recognising that a lot of the time …the reason I went out into the cold and was not at one with it is that I was extraordinarily aware that should any of my support team go, I would die out there. And it’s that. So in one way you are at one with it, because you’d die in it, and that would be it. But all your psychological strengths would come to bear and go “How am I going to survive this?”

L.

So our force, our energy as humans on the planet has allowed us to go to the poles…

S.

It has.

L.
…in our ships, and in our amazing outfits, which separate us.

S.

Yes. But if we didn’t have that separation we would…I mean, I think what I’m saying is that I recognise all the complexities. I’m sure I don’t recognise all of them. I see myself within. I see myself warts and all. With all the problems that I have. I’m at least in the situation where I’m recognising the complexity. And there are no simple answers.

And in a mosaic-like way, artists will plant a seed, a work, out there. And that will magnetise a certain amount of people towards that image, towards that idea, towards that energy, which hopefully will feed them to become part of that increasing mosaic of people with energy, with ideas, with images, with solutions, with activities. And that’s really what one’s aiming for.

L.

Yes. And I think it [Endangered Species] has been very successful in that.

S.

Mmm. People say what art has got to do with it. Well art is THE human activity. It is one of the things that separate us out , not made out of matter, but it does, so let’s use it, let’s use it. I’m very conscious of the idea of propaganda, and with a lot of artists we’ve discussed many many conflicting ideas about…as an artist, what is this idea that we’re sending out? And that’s where one uses the word accuracy. So you’re shifting away from the idea of propaganda, because in its accuracy it becomes a proper thing in itself. And then if someone uses that energy because it has given them information about climate change, or anything else that you want to use your particular work for, then that’s the thing, rather than you necessarily feel you have to endeavour to find …ah…what is it…a representation.

I imagine as an artist you’re trying to make what I call the thing to have the IS-ness, to have the accuracy to stand on its own feet and then be used.

L.

When it achieves that point where it doesn’t need you any more.

S.

Yes.

L.

It has a life of its own.

S.

Yes. It has a life of its own and it is recognisable.

But you know I have spoken to Dan Harvey and Heather Ackroyd who are in the [Cape Farewell] film, who I think are extraordinary artists and I think occasionally I’ve hear Heather say, “Why not be a propagandist for this. This is so incredibly important. Let’s not worry about words like that.” And I took on what they said. And at the same time you might have another artist who turns around and says, “I think my work has to be what it is, and then within that, does it have a particular kind of force, or idea. And then you speak to an author like Ian McEwan who I think would like, in one way, to make a…to write something about climate change, but won’t until he knows that the thing he’s going to write is a real thing.

L.

Yes. I totally agree.

S.

I’m sorry for all these Things and Its and Is-nesses, which are not brilliant use of language. And yet, it’s very important for all of us not to become, not to be pretentious, not to feel smug, not to feel we have a knowledge that other people don’t have. And, to use Alex Hartley’s piece, to have intrigue and humour when being able to generate an idea. That is really going to grab hold of more people.

L.

Exactly. Yes, it’s connecting with people. I totally agree.

There is a perception that people who have been to the poles are some sort of secret society. So there’s a response, usually negative, in that regard immediately from some. So it’s important to break that down.

S.

Yes. I feel unbelievably privileged that I went there.

L.

One of the things that I find…I can use the word accuracy…in relation to your work [Endangered Species] is use of very much a shared experience of what people have of the ice, this remarkable clarity of line. It’s just too sharp and too perfect, too pure. And you use that same visual language from the environment . And the other thing was the dark and the light. There are only two seasons at the poles. There’s winter and summer. So people who know that would know that when they see your work. Your use of black and white. So many people use lots of colours. If you’re only there for the summer it’s all very beautiful but it’s a little oceanic and there’s nothing tangible or clear to grasp. So that’s what works for me in your work. Yes, it’s a personal …a response to a personal moment , but when I see it I see insects. I see the species and I think of Darwin…

S.

Yes.

L.
…and all that that brings. And then I see the ice, so it’s grounded here (left arm extends) and there (right arm extends), and in the middle is this dancer, this human flesh and blood. And so it goes beyond the personal into the world. So that really excited me.

S.

That’s good. It was extraordinary going into the Natural History Museum . And again, I was slightly poleaxe about what to do. But when I was there I saw these extraordinary wooden specimen boxes. And within the specimen boxes were quite often a species that had gone. They mostly looked a bit mouldy. And I found that very moving. I found looking at the fossils, which are the imprints, and are very linear, very clear, calligraphic marks of a creature gone but left in stone. And I found that very focussing. And I found that idea of Victorian collection …that we collect things, to observe. I don’t know what else to say about that, but that idea of collecting to observe.

L.

Well it was an obsession, a Victorian obsession. People collected more stuff than they could make sense of. Which is why it’s so beautiful that you’ve made this one piece, this one thing that looks like a part of a huge collection.

S.

Yes. And it’s only one. It’s a nice way of putting it.

L.

It’s your contribution to what Heather Ackroyd, and other artists are doing, to theis raising of awareness. That’s how I see it.

S.

Yeah. Well I think it is. You just put your , the idea that you think is the thing, the best thing that you can produce, and you put it out there. And I’m glad that it’s had the response that it has. In the main I think it’s had quite a good response.

L.

I was going to ask you, and I don’t know if I need to now. But…this is my last question. When I get back to Australia, I have a group of other artists and dance therapists and art therapists, who have agreed to work with me in moving and drawing in response to some Antarctic texts.

S.

Drawing will be very useful to you.

L.

Yes. I’ve done some preliminary work in that and I’ve found it very powerful. My question was, given your experience in the Arctic, and as a dancer, a teacher and a choreographer, are there any scores you might suggest..

S.

I thought about that yesterday. Max Eastley, who was the composer who went up there, has all these sound scores. And you could probably get one of those even if you went to the Cape Farewell Office at the South Bank. Because he was here yesterday, Max.

L.

Sorry, I …That’s a musical score. I was thinking of a score for movement improvisation.

S. Oh., those kind of scores.

L.

But that’s a brilliant idea that I hadn’t thought of.

S.

It’s just that he…it’s the sound of the Arctic.

L.

Beautiful. And I saw his sculpture, with the ice things.

S.

Yes, that’s it. And he’s made a sort of whole Arctic symphony. An hour long.

L.

So if I go…

S.

Go to the Cape Farewell office …

…I think it’s quite good if you make your own score [for improvising responses]. I think text is always useful. I think maybe it’s like a collection of things. If it’s text and drawing, …rhythm. I think to keep to a particular rhythm …this is choreographically, not anything to do with climate change…to be clear about a rhythm is an incredibly good discipline. To be clear about certain timings gives you a structure and a discipline, so you don’t wander off and make phrase after phrase after phrase after phrase. One phrase begins to erase out if you’re not careful.

So, use your word accurate. Try and find…Sorry I’m being …

L.

Please! [encouraging]

S.

OK I might as well go for it….

Give yourself a discipline. Say OK I’m going to do something for a certain amount of time. And make the time very short. And then do it a certain amount of time again on the score. So the score gives you timing, imaginative idea, geographic idea. And then, get on with it.

L.

That’s brilliant!

S.

Ha! (Laughs, claps hands)

L.

That’s all I needed to be told.

S.

I’m sure you knew that. But I think we all know that, and sometimes we just need to be told again.

L.

And sometimes we just forget. It’s very easy to lose ourselves in that oceanic stuff.

S.

Oh yeah.

L.

…which is just murk.

S.

Yeah.

I did a talk on Radio 4 in Liverpool, and I don’t know if it’s still in the podcasts. But it had a lot to do with matter and body and …it might be helpful to you.

L.

It will be.

S.

There’s a woman called Maresa von Stockert who’s a choreographer, who is doing a piece this Thursday and Friday at the Queen Elizabeth Hall which is based on …climate change. I think it works with ice.

L.

Thank you so much.

S.

[laughs]